Invitation to a conference about the mortality of the soul and the true penalty for the sin (death and not eternal torment in the so called hellfire)
Job 13:7 Young's Literal Translation
"For God do ye speak perverseness? And for Him do ye speak deceit?"
The widespread conception of the state of the dead in both Christian and other cultures can be summed up as follows: when a man dies, his soul survives death, and according to good or bad deeds goes either to hell or to heaven.
• But does the Bible claim that after death, man does not cease to exist and can live without resurrection?
• Does the Scripture teach the teaching of an immortal soul that does not need resurrection?
• Are the wicked tormented in the fire before the resurrection or after the resurrection?
For all these questions, we will try to respond by the grace of God, with the help of the Word of God, into the conference that will be held this year on these subjects.
We do not apologize for sinners, but we invite them to repent, escaping by the resurrection from the wages of sin: death.
Unfortunately, the scribes in the Catholic Church have altered certain Bible passages to support these dogmas. At this conference, the main changes made by these scribes to support their doctrines will be reviewed.
Example:
I have a question from a brother working in England, linked to a tract we distribute.
His question was:
"In the tract it is said that in the Bible Codex Vaticanus of the fourth century there is a comma in the verse in Luke 23:43, but the comma was invented only in the 9th century ..."
The documented answer proving that the source of the brother is erroneous: "In the 3rd century BC, Aristophanes of Byzantium invented a system of single dots (distinctiones) that separated verses (colometry) and indicated the amount of breath needed to complete each fragment of text when reading aloud.[3] The different lengths were signified by a dot at the bottom, middle, or top of the line. For a short passage (a komma), a media distinctio dot was placed mid-level ( · ). This is the origin of the concept of a comma, although the name came to be used for the mark itself instead of the clause it separated."
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma
So the comma was not invented in the 9th century, but unfortunately this stereotype is being circulated in different places. And now let's see how it was placed in the Vatican Codex Bible (an old Bible written in the Vatican City of Rome, Rome, Italy):
Luke 23:43 Bible Codex Vaticanus "Amēn (Amen) soi (to you) legō (say) sēmeron (today), met '(with) emou (mine) esē (you will be) en (in) Paradeisō (Paradise)."
"Amēn soi legō sēmeron, met 'emou esē en to Paradeisō."
"Amen I tell you today, with me you will be in Paradise."
The Codex Vatican Bible is not the only ancient resource where the comma appears in this order. We have the testimony of a fourth-century Aramaic Gospel (Codex Curetonianus) and some ancient Greek texts, both biblical manuscripts and quotes from various church writers from antiquity.
Be blessed!
Do you have important issues?
Are you looking for God?
Looking for answers from the Bible?
Do you have a question about God and the Bible?
We can talk here or at bibliaantica@yahoo.com
(Romania).
Re: Luke 23:43 - Where does the comma go?
John Albu (rt20@columbia.edu)
Fri, 2 Aug 1996 00:13:58 -0400 (EDT)
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For the punctuation marks in Luke 23:43, three possibilities have been
offered: to put a comma before the word "today," to put it after "today,"
or to put a comma both before and after "today." -- See "Understanding and
Translating 'Today' in Luke 23.43," by J. Hong, published in "The Bible
Translator," Vol. 46, 1995, pp. 408-417.
Early Greek manuscripts had no punctuation, but occasionally it is found
in some MSS, and this is the case here, where B (the Vatican 1209) has a
lower point ((hypostigme) after semeron. Regarding the punctuation used by
this MS, it was noted that in general "B has the higher point as a period,
the lower point for a shorter pause." (A. T. Robertson, "A Grammar of the
Greek New Testament," Nashville, 1934, p. 242) The ink of the uncial
letters in codex B was at one time a faded brown color, and in a later
century a scribe traced over many of the letters and punctuation marks.
However, in Luke 23:43 the ink of the lower point is the same as the
letters of the text, and thus it can be traced back to the fourth century
C.E.
The Vatican 1209 uses punctuation marks also in other places. Thus, at
Romans 8:5, ABCL and 26 cursives have a point after sarka. Does anybody
know any MS that displays some kind of punctuation in Luke 23:43, beside
the Vatican 1209?
The Curetonian Syriac (fifth century C.E.) renders Luke 23:43: "Amen,
I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of
Eden.'" -- F. C. Burkitt, "The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels," Vol.
I, Cambridge, 1904.
Below I am quoting from several Greek sources, in transliteration and
providing an English translation. I would appreciate if improvements would
be offered for the English renderings.
“Tines men houtos anaginoskousin* _Amen lego soi semeron*_ kai
hypostizousin* eita epipherousin, hotiet' emou ese e to paradeiso._”
("Some indeed read this way: 'Truly I tell you today,' and put a comma;
then they add: 'You will be with me in Paradise.'" -- Hesychius of
Jerusalem, an ecclessiastical writer who died about 434 C.E. Greek text
found in Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 93, columns 432, 1433.
“Alloi de ekbiazontai to rhema, stizontes eis to <<Semeron,>> hin' e to
legomenon toiouton* <<Amen ego soi semeron*>> eita to, <<met' emou ese
en to paradeiso,>> epipherontes.” ("But others press upon the saying,
putting a punctuation mark after 'today,' so that it would be said
this way: 'Truly I tell you today'; and then they add the expression:
'You will be with me in Paradise.'") -- Theophylact, an ecclessistical
writer who died about 1112 C.E. Edition: Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 123,
column 1104.
“alloi -- to rheton ekbiazontai* legousin gar dein hypostizontas (254:
hypostizantas) anaginoskein* amen lego soi semeron*>> eith' houtos
epipherein to* met' emou ese etc.” ("Others press upon what is spoken;
for they say it must read by putting a comma thus: 'Truly I tell you
today,' and then adding the expression this way: 'You will be with me'
etc.") -- Scholia 237, 239, 254. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece,
editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869,
under Luke 23:43.
“kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, met' emou ese en
to parad[eiso].” ("And immediately he said to me: 'Most truly today
I tell you, You will be with me in Paradise.'") -- Descent into Hades,
an apocryphal writing of the fourth century C.E. Text found in Novum
Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol.
I, Leipzig, 869, under Luke 23:43.
“ho de eipen auto* semeron lego soi aletheian hina se ekho eis ton
parad[eison] met' emou.” ("And he said to him: 'Today I tell you the
truth, that I should have you in Paradise with me.'") -- Gospel of
Nicodemus (=Acts of Pilate) b287, an apocryphal writing of the fourth
or fifth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio
octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869, under
Luke 23:43.
Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the
twelfth century C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke
23:43 as "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." On
that very day, when Jesus died, he was in Sheol or Hades, and not in
Paradise. (Psalms 16:8-11; Acts 2:22-32) He was dead and in the tomb
until the third day and was then resurrected as "the firstfruits" of the
resurrection. (Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18) Thus, the
word "today" at Luke 23:43 does not give the time of the evildoer's being
with Jesus in Paradise.
The death of Jesus Christ on that day was a most important event in human
history. It opened to mankind the prospect of gaining everlasting life in
Paradise conditions. A few hours before on that very day, during a simple
ceremony, Jesus used wine and unleavened bread as symbols of his loving
human sacrifice; then he told his disciples: "Keep doing this in
remembrance of me." (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26) It was only as a
result of Jesus' impending sacrificial death on that day that such promise
to the evildoer was possible.
John Albu
• Next message: kcew32b@prodigy.com: "Does the NT authors use of "God sent his only son" imply..."
• Previous message: LNJVO@cc.newcastle.edu.au: "today"
Articole recomandate
Job 13:7 Young's Literal Translation
"For God do ye speak perverseness? And for Him do ye speak deceit?"
The widespread conception of the state of the dead in both Christian and other cultures can be summed up as follows: when a man dies, his soul survives death, and according to good or bad deeds goes either to hell or to heaven.
• But does the Bible claim that after death, man does not cease to exist and can live without resurrection?
• Does the Scripture teach the teaching of an immortal soul that does not need resurrection?
• Are the wicked tormented in the fire before the resurrection or after the resurrection?
For all these questions, we will try to respond by the grace of God, with the help of the Word of God, into the conference that will be held this year on these subjects.
We do not apologize for sinners, but we invite them to repent, escaping by the resurrection from the wages of sin: death.
Unfortunately, the scribes in the Catholic Church have altered certain Bible passages to support these dogmas. At this conference, the main changes made by these scribes to support their doctrines will be reviewed.
Example:
I have a question from a brother working in England, linked to a tract we distribute.
His question was:
"In the tract it is said that in the Bible Codex Vaticanus of the fourth century there is a comma in the verse in Luke 23:43, but the comma was invented only in the 9th century ..."
The documented answer proving that the source of the brother is erroneous: "In the 3rd century BC, Aristophanes of Byzantium invented a system of single dots (distinctiones) that separated verses (colometry) and indicated the amount of breath needed to complete each fragment of text when reading aloud.[3] The different lengths were signified by a dot at the bottom, middle, or top of the line. For a short passage (a komma), a media distinctio dot was placed mid-level ( · ). This is the origin of the concept of a comma, although the name came to be used for the mark itself instead of the clause it separated."
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma
So the comma was not invented in the 9th century, but unfortunately this stereotype is being circulated in different places. And now let's see how it was placed in the Vatican Codex Bible (an old Bible written in the Vatican City of Rome, Rome, Italy):
Luke 23:43 Bible Codex Vaticanus "Amēn (Amen) soi (to you) legō (say) sēmeron (today), met '(with) emou (mine) esē (you will be) en (in) Paradeisō (Paradise)."
"Amēn soi legō sēmeron, met 'emou esē en to Paradeisō."
"Amen I tell you today, with me you will be in Paradise."
The Codex Vatican Bible is not the only ancient resource where the comma appears in this order. We have the testimony of a fourth-century Aramaic Gospel (Codex Curetonianus) and some ancient Greek texts, both biblical manuscripts and quotes from various church writers from antiquity.
Be blessed!
Do you have important issues?
Are you looking for God?
Looking for answers from the Bible?
Do you have a question about God and the Bible?
We can talk here or at bibliaantica@yahoo.com
(Romania).
Re: Luke 23:43 - Where does the comma go?
John Albu (rt20@columbia.edu)
Fri, 2 Aug 1996 00:13:58 -0400 (EDT)
• Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ]
• Next message: kcew32b@prodigy.com: "Does the NT authors use of "God sent his only son" imply..."
• Previous message: LNJVO@cc.newcastle.edu.au: "today"
For the punctuation marks in Luke 23:43, three possibilities have been
offered: to put a comma before the word "today," to put it after "today,"
or to put a comma both before and after "today." -- See "Understanding and
Translating 'Today' in Luke 23.43," by J. Hong, published in "The Bible
Translator," Vol. 46, 1995, pp. 408-417.
Early Greek manuscripts had no punctuation, but occasionally it is found
in some MSS, and this is the case here, where B (the Vatican 1209) has a
lower point ((hypostigme) after semeron. Regarding the punctuation used by
this MS, it was noted that in general "B has the higher point as a period,
the lower point for a shorter pause." (A. T. Robertson, "A Grammar of the
Greek New Testament," Nashville, 1934, p. 242) The ink of the uncial
letters in codex B was at one time a faded brown color, and in a later
century a scribe traced over many of the letters and punctuation marks.
However, in Luke 23:43 the ink of the lower point is the same as the
letters of the text, and thus it can be traced back to the fourth century
C.E.
The Vatican 1209 uses punctuation marks also in other places. Thus, at
Romans 8:5, ABCL and 26 cursives have a point after sarka. Does anybody
know any MS that displays some kind of punctuation in Luke 23:43, beside
the Vatican 1209?
The Curetonian Syriac (fifth century C.E.) renders Luke 23:43: "Amen,
I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of
Eden.'" -- F. C. Burkitt, "The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels," Vol.
I, Cambridge, 1904.
Below I am quoting from several Greek sources, in transliteration and
providing an English translation. I would appreciate if improvements would
be offered for the English renderings.
“Tines men houtos anaginoskousin* _Amen lego soi semeron*_ kai
hypostizousin* eita epipherousin, hotiet' emou ese e to paradeiso._”
("Some indeed read this way: 'Truly I tell you today,' and put a comma;
then they add: 'You will be with me in Paradise.'" -- Hesychius of
Jerusalem, an ecclessiastical writer who died about 434 C.E. Greek text
found in Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 93, columns 432, 1433.
“Alloi de ekbiazontai to rhema, stizontes eis to <<Semeron,>> hin' e to
legomenon toiouton* <<Amen ego soi semeron*>> eita to, <<met' emou ese
en to paradeiso,>> epipherontes.” ("But others press upon the saying,
putting a punctuation mark after 'today,' so that it would be said
this way: 'Truly I tell you today'; and then they add the expression:
'You will be with me in Paradise.'") -- Theophylact, an ecclessistical
writer who died about 1112 C.E. Edition: Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 123,
column 1104.
“alloi -- to rheton ekbiazontai* legousin gar dein hypostizontas (254:
hypostizantas) anaginoskein* amen lego soi semeron*>> eith' houtos
epipherein to* met' emou ese etc.” ("Others press upon what is spoken;
for they say it must read by putting a comma thus: 'Truly I tell you
today,' and then adding the expression this way: 'You will be with me'
etc.") -- Scholia 237, 239, 254. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece,
editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869,
under Luke 23:43.
“kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, met' emou ese en
to parad[eiso].” ("And immediately he said to me: 'Most truly today
I tell you, You will be with me in Paradise.'") -- Descent into Hades,
an apocryphal writing of the fourth century C.E. Text found in Novum
Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol.
I, Leipzig, 869, under Luke 23:43.
“ho de eipen auto* semeron lego soi aletheian hina se ekho eis ton
parad[eison] met' emou.” ("And he said to him: 'Today I tell you the
truth, that I should have you in Paradise with me.'") -- Gospel of
Nicodemus (=Acts of Pilate) b287, an apocryphal writing of the fourth
or fifth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio
octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869, under
Luke 23:43.
Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the
twelfth century C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke
23:43 as "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." On
that very day, when Jesus died, he was in Sheol or Hades, and not in
Paradise. (Psalms 16:8-11; Acts 2:22-32) He was dead and in the tomb
until the third day and was then resurrected as "the firstfruits" of the
resurrection. (Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18) Thus, the
word "today" at Luke 23:43 does not give the time of the evildoer's being
with Jesus in Paradise.
The death of Jesus Christ on that day was a most important event in human
history. It opened to mankind the prospect of gaining everlasting life in
Paradise conditions. A few hours before on that very day, during a simple
ceremony, Jesus used wine and unleavened bread as symbols of his loving
human sacrifice; then he told his disciples: "Keep doing this in
remembrance of me." (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26) It was only as a
result of Jesus' impending sacrificial death on that day that such promise
to the evildoer was possible.
John Albu
• Next message: kcew32b@prodigy.com: "Does the NT authors use of "God sent his only son" imply..."
• Previous message: LNJVO@cc.newcastle.edu.au: "today"
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